For me, religion is the organized gatherings of people who practice by visible, tangible and audible means, their personal beliefs/faith, regadless of origin, which, due to multiple large or small distinctives, both unite them while separating them from others.
We have spend a ton of years following, believing in a framework purported to be God’s residence (as well as rules for navigating that framework) rather then an experiencing that which is within us. Good stuff!
Wow that is an very interesting article for me. I like your blog. Maybe you should write more articles of these type. By the way, sorry for my bad english
I am not religious.
I do not believe in GOD.
I do not believe in my Wife and Daughter.
I do not need ceremony or rules to be
connected to my Wife and Daughter.
Nor do I need those things to be connected
to GOD.
Religion does not connect any one to GOD.
Religion divides and separates one from GOD.
There is no religion in the relationship with
my Wife and Daughter.
I love them, They love me.
They know without thought that I love them, and
I know without thought that they love me.
We are Family.
That is Faith, That is our connection.
We experience GOD as we experience each other.
We are a part of GODs Family, GOD is a part of
our Family.
GOD, my Wife, and my Daughter are me and I am
them whether we are together or apart that does
not change.
That is the best I can explain connection to GOD.
I realy don’t think about it at all, I just live it as HE
inspired it in the Bible and other writings and
teachings.
The question seems to assume a connection is needed that does not already exist. But to answer the question, Religion and Faith do not connect anyone to God. Why?
Religion brings God down to man’s level (an anthropomorphic God) in an attempt to explain the unexplainable. The Gods of Religion have everything in common with man, yet almost knowing in common with the conscious fabric of the universe that is everything and everyone (and everything) is part of, and made from.
To use an old and well used analogy, God is the ocean and we are the drops. We see ourselves as separate, conscious entities desperately trying to find our Creator (usually with Faith-based religions), instead of understanding that we are all connected, and are ourselves the living potential of the very thing we seek. This is the meaning of Jesus’ statement, “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you.”
Jesus & Buddha both taught that finding God is an inward journey…but what exactly does that mean? It is so simple, yet so many misunderstand the teaching because it is right in front of their face, making them blind to seeing it…and the teaching is this: You can find God within because we all are part of God. Finding inner stillness can lead us to this awakening…an experience not easily explained to others or understood until experienced…hence the difficulty. The other path of Religion and Faith is easier to understand, but is a false path never leading to enlightenment. The inward path is difficult to understand and contrary to most religions, even though the Masters taught it that way. Religions tend to be about the Master, rather than the teachings and principles of the Master.
God has no religion, and requires no Faith. Does it require Faith for a parent to love a child, or vice-versa? God is, always was, and always will be. If we embrace our own Godliness, the ocean comes within sight.
I’ve read the New Testament many times, both in English translations and the original Greek, and I can assure you that Jesus never said anything remotely resembling what Jonathan is saying.
One of the first scriptural passages i learned as a child was Hebrews 11:1 which reads “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen”
In regards to Question #1 I look at God as being the wind, faith is the sail and religion is the boat. Can we experience the wind on our faces and through our hair without a method of harnessing it or a vehicle to propel it forward. Sure, I suppose we could simply enjoy the afternoon breeze on our own faces as we walk on the beach. However, look at the thousands of years of philosophical thought & writings & culture & civilizations that have been enhanced by people willing to put sail to boat & see what adventure the wind will take them on..
Hi There,
Well, to respond, I think that if the religion or faith has a focal point that includes something higher than self, and if the individual wants to rise higher to the Great It, then many sacred myths can act as a road to take us there. Particularly when certain universal things are present, such as appreciation for Our Maker, the pattern of life, death and rebirth, and a certain kind of beauty within the particular mythic story, which has a drawing or attracting power. Then we ride on the myth, upward, reaching, because we want to connect with something higher.
Religion, for the most part, presents us with an intention to know and come closer to God, however misguided the teachings and practices may be. If there is a purity of heart and a total commitment behind the intention, then it matters not that the teachings and practices may be misguided.
Faith gives us the courage and hope needed to at least experiment with the power of the unseen that we might come to know first hand the source of real power.
I have to disagree with you. If one is convinced that some or all of the teachings and practices of a religion are misguided, then I think one only deceives oneself. All religions, or nearly all as far as I know, claim to be the one true faith. They all can’t be right, so I conclude that only one of them is right or all of them are wrong. I have faith that there is a God, otherwise nothing would exist. Try to conceive the concept of nothing: no space, no atoms, no energy, nothing. It is almost as hard to conceive of nothing as it is to conceive of infinity. However, where does God exist, if anywhere? In space or in nothing (hyperspace, whatever that is)?
Thought I would share a favorite poem by Author/s unknown.
The title is: D’ont Miss Out
The man whispered, “God speak to me”
And a meadow lark sang, but the man did not hear
So, the man yelled, “God speak to me”
And the thunder rolled across the sky, but the man did not listen
The man looked around and said, “God, let me see you”
And a star shone brightly, but the man did not notice
And the man shouted, “God show me a miracle”
And a life was born, but the man did not know
So, the man cried out in despair, “Touch me, God, and let me know that you are here”
Whereupon, God reached down and touched the man, but the man brushed the butterfly away and walked on
Don’t miss out on a blessing because it isn’t packaged the way you expect it.
I thought this poem reflects my thoughts about seeing God in everything.
This first question is a very packed question; because faith and religion have so many various meanings to the individual. Some would classify faith as a blind belief in whatever, despite evidence to the contrary. I would not define it as such. To me, faith is based on experience. I have faith this keyboard will type the next letter I press because it has done so in the past. Faith when coupled with religion (in my case) is the idea that the religion will continue to help me feel a connection to the divine (others may find that the coupling produces a way to know God’s will, or how to submit, ect), because it has done so in the past… but then again not all religions care, or even accept a divine. An an example would be certain forms of Buddhism that are atheistic in the divine realm, but are still considered a religion. So then how to define religion? One of the books I recently heard about (and so wanna buy once it comes out next month) is that religions do not all deal with the same issues, problems, or questions. A Question a Christian would ask is not at all related to a question a Hindu, or even a Muslim, would ask in concerns to the Divine and our relationship to it.
For me, and my spiritual path, the question has nothing to do with salvation or sin; what I am most concerned with is a truthful and personal experience with the divine (in whatever form that it takes). For me, religion is a tool to bring about that connection as well as a platform from which to process the experiences I have had. I have faith in the platform to help me come to terms and finding ways of expressing those experiences; but I also have faith in my inability to ever really convince anyone that what I have experienced is real (and truthfully, I think that is as it should be; for I believe we must all walk our own path and my trying to convince you of my experiences neither helps you on your way, or me on mine)… but again I would argue that my religion is one that puts value on those experiences in ways that would be completely meaningless in a Christian, Muslim, atheist (although atheism is not a religion, it is a world view and so fits the argument to a certain extent), or even other form of pagan context.
Can one have faith without religion? Sure, but I think that is extremely hard to do. I tend to think religion without faith is heckava lot easier; but this would not help me answer the questions that my path wishes to explore, or the questions it wants to answer. I will use this tool and hopefully will find those answers and by doing so, connect with the divine.
“faith is based on experience. I have faith this keyboard will type the next letter I press because it has done so in the past.”
I think this is right on the money. Actually, it jibes quite well with rabbinic thought on the bible’s Abraham. He didn’t have “faith” in that he believed God exists…he KNEW God (exists)…just like you know your keyboard (exists). Rather his faith was that he trusted God to “behave” as God said God would “behave.” Just imagine what life would be like if no one had an faith. We couldn’t do ANYTHING, always doubting whether our keyboards would actually type what we wan!
Other than that, Lynn, I appreciate that you’ve saved me the time of writing that for me religion is a tool that helps me connect to the divine reality. I totally agree. I hadn’t thought about it “as a platform from which to process the experiences I have had,” but I think that’s right on too.
I would add that it’s not just hard to have faith without religion, but that it might be impossible. It’s just that what the “religion” is is different. If we sense the divine, we seek to connect with it. That may be through historic, traditional religiosity or through our own private rituals, but it’s some form of religion all the same.
” If we sense the divine, we seek to connect with it.” This plays very into my response to the second question. My faith requires that I form a healthy relationship, to connect in a meaningful matter; other wise, why bother?
I was raised in the Methodist religion, but have morphed over time into believing in a higher power that doesn’t resemble any religion’s “god”. At times I find myself wishing that I had “a god” to pray to, or believe in, or cry out to….and eventually most times find that, well, I actually do have that. God is in us, around us and touches us in many ways every day. I feel that if we just choose to believe in (or have “faith” in) the support that “God” gives us, mentally and emotionally, then we do have “God” in our lives. This evolution of my thoughts and feelings about God are how I have chosen to connect myself to the being.
I do feel that going to church when I was young was a help, not a hindrance, in my eventual personal journey. That and very thoughtfully open-minded parents helped me to come to this point in thought.
First, definitions are important, and I have heard “faith” and “religion” used synonymously, such as when people ask “What faith are you?” For me, faith broadly speaking is much more difficult to define, than religion.
However, for this question, for me, strict definitions probably aren’t so important. What has pointed me toward a real engagement with the Mystery some call God, are practices or techniques that are found in all religions or faiths, including Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, and Christianity.
Those practices are the meditation techniques which all offer a doorway or path to the experience of that nameless Whatever, and so that is how they each connect an individual to God.
When reduced to the cultural and contextual constructs of religion, I think that all religions suffer through these challenges, and they (religions) can easily distract from faith and an understanding of God (Deity) that is the foundation of all religions. In other words, we get so caught up in justifying and defending our understanding of what faith means (i.e., religion) that we move further and further away *from* that faith. The important thing to realize though, at least as I’m trying to sort through these ideas, is that any faith that does not allow us to do away with external ideas (rooted in cultural and contextual constructs) is not a true manifestation of that faith. It seems to me that in an effort to provide responses that support the *certainty* of our faith, we lose the very essence of that faith, which is to believe despite the lack of certainty.
I’ve been trying to sort through these ideas for over four years now, but it’s still very much a work in progress.
I would encourage you to hold on to God and Christ, and let that be the starting point from which you examine Christianity. If you find things in the religion that do not support faith in God and Christ, then work on whether or not the religion is asserting its primacy rather than that of the Deity.
Does any of this make sense? I confess, it’s hard to know if my thinking is sound, as so few of those with whom I interact are willing to embrace negative capability (i.e., the capacity to hold two contradictory thoughts at the same time).
I think it is one of the characteristics of living faith to experience the struggle between conflicting thoughts. I think it is a consequence of the fact that our understanding is permanently growing as we work our way through the questions that we have.
The connection to God (if one feels one) is usually linked to the ideology of one’s adopted religion or philosophy. This connection is feeling and thought, and therein lies the problem. The feeling validates the belief system and vice versa. And now we have individuals separated by ideology and at odds with others who hold a different set of values or beliefs.
I have no personal involvement in religion but I know that the First Commandment gives the clue to this. One “idol” is the ideology or words that we hold along with the feeling of God. If God is One, then we don’t need any words to give it strength or substance. The feeling of God is ALL and words and beliefs only corrupt its pure essence.
So, religion really does not have much to do with all of this except to provide a social network for its members. Faith is a much more personal matter. Faith is the acceptance that God is All, and that faith can operate in the dark (without ideology or belief or knowledge). The darkness of faith will carry us to the light of God.
I realize this explanation is a little heavy on metaphor. I hope its meaning is clear.
I suppose in order for this discussion to be truly fruitful (and hopefully to multiply), we need to hear why those who profess a faith in God but subscribe to no religious beliefs or affiliations whatsoever do in fact have such a faith. I for one would like such answers to contain as much detail, as much specificity, as is possible, hopefully with anecdotes that indicate how such faith was born in the individual who now holds it dear. I have no problem understanding why someone would want no formal religious ties, because all such ties, such frameworks, come with limitations stemming from the very fact that they are attempting to define the indefinable. But someone who has faith but no religion must also have come up with their own definitions of God that are based on no structure at all, and I want to know how they arrived at these formulations.
I think you’re on to something here. You’re right that people who claim to have faith yet no religion must come up with their own “definitions” of God (though I would say “ways of relating” to God rather than “definitions”). I suspect the reality is that such a person relates to God in a variety of thought out, patterned ways…kind of like a religion. And so, I have doubts that people of faith have NO religion, though I’m sure that they may have a different – even their own – religion. If the person hasn’t developed ways of relating to God, then God has no direct relevance for the person, which would make the claim of faith a bit dubious. This brings me to the suspected conclusion that these people of faith but no religion are not actually rejecting religion per se, but rather a certain way of being religious.
I read once that religion is man’s attempt to reach God and Faith is God’s provision to reach man. I belong to a Monday night group of women who regularly discuss this and there are as many opinions as members of the group. It’s difficult to separae what we’ve learned from an organic experience but I believe that if you want to connect to God, ask how. The sincere question will lead to answers.
I belong to a small group of liberal women in an ultra-conservative retirement village. Our group saves our sanity as we study the latest writings’ exploring the interpretations of not only the Christian religion, but all others. One of our members is an avid fan of Jacoby, and she has brought your essay to us this week. I am very interested in being part of this on-line discussion group.
First of all, I note that your questions presuppose that there is a God. How do you determine that?
Religion connects some to a God, but it often becomes a fanatic connection in which other religions are wrong, and yours is right. Faith, on the other hand, can be experienced by aethiests as well. We all have faith in something, and that something varies widely. One great philosopher whose name escapes me said that if there were no God we´d have to invent one. Many of us feel that is just what we have done.
I am also interested in Physics but even that cannot take us back beyond the small particle that blew up ” The Big Bang ¨ So, that is where many of us posit something greater than ourselves as existing. How do you define ¨religion¨and ¨faith¨… Not easy words to corral.
Good point about the presupposition, Carol. I think the problem is addressed in a couple of ways, some of which you provide in your comment.
First, we would need to define “God” before saying with certainty that we have presupposed it. You say that “many of us post something greater than ourselves as existing.” That, I think, is the “God” that is presupposed here…not an unreasonable presupposition, in my opinion.
Second, and related, if atheists can experience faith and if we would have to invent a “God” (I have a feeling that was Einstein, but I’m not sure) in any case, then the presupposition seems to be of little concern.
Those two points (atheists of faith and invented “God”) seem to me to be key. Here’s what I take from them: Even if we’ve invented “God,” there definitely is a “God” insofar as we invest something with the sense of the ultimate. “God,” in this sense, is our ultimate concern. We must all have an ultimate concern (i.e. “God”), the question just becomes “what is it?” One would hope that this ultimate concern is indeed ultimate, though it need not be. I think the danger in investing ultimate status into something that is itself not truly ultimate can be rather dangerous (think the RCC placing the institutional church as its ultimate concern, or Enron execs placing $ as theirs, etc.) is quite clear.
I think your suspicion that we are “inventing” God is quite right. Every time we develop symbols (which includes all words…e.g. “God”) for God, we have in some sense invented God. The problem lies in forgetting that what we have come up with are not God, but rather symbols. In such a case we assign ultimate status to the symbols themselves. (In religious terms, this would be called idolatry.)
In my view, Religion…all religions, are businesses, first and foremost, primarily for the economic benefit of the priests, elders, speakers, leaders, what have you! And faith is the glue and the club to keep the suckers(er, members) in line and contributing their time, money, and support. If you should have the temerity to question THE leader or the foundational “faith” of the religion, then you lack faith and need to be “fixed”!
Therefore, neither Faith or Religion, have any capability to connect an individual with a God! Now if there is some sort of Cosmic Consciousness, then I like the concepts of Kashmir Shaivism.. that is, there only exists this Cosmic Conciousness and everthing is a manifestation of that Supreme Consciousness and all of this is a Play of that Consciousness. My human existence is a part of that play and for that matter I am that Consciousness too! Namaste! I see myself, God, in you! Peekaboo!!
i haven’t thought it all through yet. but. it seems to me that religion conects people to itself first and then through growth to God. in order to do that, one has to give up something of them selves. so one must know something about the kind of person one is. Faith ultimately boils down to believing something that is unbelievable or un provable. my God for example is so powerful that He created this world we live in and he did it his way. now, if his way was to combine darwinian evolution in chimpanzees to the point where he breathed the breath of life into them, (the ability to reason) and then called them man, i don’t care. exactly how God accomplished this is not relevant to my life. that he did is.
so my growth has been about leaving behind all the trappings of religion and focusing on one question: if all this God stuff is real, what is the relevant truth. at this point i believe my God is so loving and encompassing he will reconcile his creation, muslim, shihite, hindu, methodist, catholic, gay and lesbian, muslim, athiest, and even lutherans to himself by what ever means is necessary. and, he has that power.
it is important to remember that at the “last supper”, there were no lutherans, methodists, presbyterians, catholics, muslims, shihites, hindu or baptists at the table. there were only jews and serving the table was a woman from herod’s court. on the cross, Jesus said to the robber TODAY! you will be with me in paradise. he didn’t say if you belong to the lutheran church and repent i’ll see you in paradise.
but without a teacher, i believe it is difficult to make the trip. so i believe religion can be a good teacher and put us on the “right” path? but at every fork in the path we must choose which road to follow. all of the bible teaches us to shed anything which does not support the two greatest commandments: love God and love your neighbor.
so i think the message is clear. if religion keeps one shackled to what one can see, touch feel, smell or taste, i believe it’s time to shed the religion for faith.
I love the box analogy. And I’ve enjoyed reading the ideas posted here. A rabbi I knew who passed away last year once said “I believe in radical interfaith. Not the kind where we holds hands and secretly say ‘We’ll see who’s right in the end’– but where we share what are our experiences with God, what motivates us, inspires us to believe as we do, what are our struggles and successes of faith.” I love that.
In that spirit, II want to share a kite analogy I’ve heard with a different application that this dialogue brings to mind.
If you’ve ever flown a kite, or flown one with a child, think about how you get that kite off the ground and help it fly. Maybe you or the child thought, “The string is holding the kite back. Let’s cut it so it can fly high forever!” If you ever have cut it, or even let the string go, what happens to the kite? Watching the kite fall/float to the ground goes against what you thought/reasoned/felt. “Religion holds man/woman/humans down in dogma, fear, and trepidation.” This may sometimes be the case. Many religious groups and leaders have utilized their teachings to control or manipulate even destroy others with the efficiency someone flying the kite. I notice many comments from folks here are sharing the conclusion or assumption that religion is man-made, mostly likely countering that many believe/assume religion is divinely instituted/inspired (or that one’s own religion is “right” and the others “wrong”). Back to the kite–It requires an energy source (kite flyer and the wind) and a means of connection (string) to fly and be guided. The Bible says “Straight is the gate and narrow the way that leads to eternal life and few there be that enter therein.” Lao Tsu says “Great straightness seems twisted.” That kite string looks confining, narrow, limiting, even ridiculous to outside observers. Many rituals and religious teachings appear the same. Yet as I’ve visited temples, chapels, mosques, meditation halls, synagogues, mountains, rivers, etc. I’ve gained a deeper appreciation and understanding of God through another set of glasses. The actions themselves of singing, chanting, sitting, reading, moving, standing, listening, sharing put my body and spirit in a different frame of thinking and being and new energy and ideas seem to flow each time. I wonder sometimes, besides traditional interpretations, if the straight gate Jesus spoke of or the “great straightness” of the Tao is an open awareness of past/present/future. If we truly seek and connect with an awareness of what lies before and after us, as well as within/among us, I believe we would find God, faith, and even religion and rituals. Of course our finite minds cannot truly comprehend the past/present/future on our own, so the more profoundly/regularly we seek connection with God, the more opportunity we have for Him to show us the visions of all things we need to know. Many thinkers/theologians/prophets have set to describe God and the Great Whatever. I believe each of us has every right and opportunity to question their words, and also to accept them. I believe each of us has a connection with the infinite, the divine, God like that kite string. We ourselves are the ones who severe it by closing our minds and hearts to truth, faith, other people, and sometimes, yes, religion. If God, the supposedly unknowable and mysterious, wants to make himself known to us by allowing us to see Him and see the string that connects us to him, who are we to say he cannot give us the tools to share that experience with others? Yet there is the danger that the tools given, even “mandated” by God for us may supplant another person’s personal/individual connection with Him– hence the box analogy.
To me, the greatest challenge and greatest opportunity in these times is to be still in our minds and hearts while also engaged in what we are called to do by He and She who know our paths. This is a work and life of discipline and love.
Religion is the framework by which individuals workout and explore their relationship with God. It is a starting point – a system of rituals and teachings designed to help an individual focus his thinking about God. Faith is an individual’s unique and personal experience with God. It is Gods revelation of himself to the individual. People have both material and spiritual dimensions. Religion facilitates our connection to God with respect to our material dimension and faith connects our spiritual dimension to God. I think we need both.
Two simple points about two major flaws in your argument.
1) Saying that you know God exists (which you say you do) makes a claim to knowing something about God. If you know he exists why can you not know anything else about him?
2) Suggesting that God is unknowable beyond his existence is an even bolder, and incredibly arrogant position. First, you ARE claiming to know something about God when you we cannot know anything about him. Knowing is “unknowableness” is knowing something about Him. Second, you greatly limit God in such a statement – who are you to claim He cannot reveal anything about Himself to us? Is He, who is capable of anything, not actually capable of revelation?
Saying God is unknowable is not a claim to know anything about God. Quite the opposite, it is a claim to know nothing about God.
The problem here is our need to rely on creation to describe the uncreated. One can’t even properly say that God exists because existence is itself created. If God exists, then existence must be present outside of creation. Most monotheists contend that the only thing that is present outside creation is God, so unless existence is God, then existence can’t be present outside of creation for a monotheist, thus God can’t have existence (i.e. can’t exist).
This problem is also there with the word “present” as I’ve used it above. The issue is that every word, thought, dream, etc. we have is a part of creation. Thus we have no way to describe or discuss anything that is not a part of creation. IT’s a bit like the “visualizers” on iTunes and Windows Media Player that “depict” the sounds visually. The depictions are not the sounds and really don’t tell us anything about the sounds, they are – at best – visual metaphors for something that is wholly other from themselves.
Even the notion of “limiting” God forces God into our framework of creation. Your question about God’s capabilities in this regard is the same as the question about God creating a rock so heavy that God can’t lift it. This is only a paradox when we are thinking in the sense of creation. But God transcends creation. In God this apparent paradox is not present. God is not capable of anything because God does not have capabilities. God transcends capabilities.
This is why Godtalk usually makes no sense and seems incoherent. God is not rational.
For me, religion is an outward or public expression of an inward or personal experience of Spirit. Martha Woodroof calls God “the great Whatever”. I like that. I sometimes call God That Which Is Greater. Greater than what? Whataya got? Whatever word(s) or thought or theology or system or belief or experience you may have, God is greater than that. That’s fine, but how does little me connect to Greater That?
There’s lots to say about the need – and the awareness of the need – to connect what we perceive to be our solitary selves with the greater world around us. Suffice it to say that we need and seek relationships. And we need and seek relationships, apparently, beyond the satisfaction of materialistic requirements. Whitehead said that we not only seek to live, we seek to live well and then seek to live better yet. We are constantly looking for something greater.
Religion is a human invention, like language, that helps us form relationships; helps us connect with the greater community. Language helps us express our thoughts. Religion helps us express our spirit. Like languages, religions have their own traditions and histories of development, their own grammar and syntax. At their best, religion helps connect us with the spiritual experiences of others. This enhances our own experience and connection with God.
Problems develop when, as C. S. Lewis indicated, we mistake the map for the territory. When we take our religion to be not just an expression of Spirit, but the truth of spirit itself. We then become disconnected from others and God. Religion then can become hollow, a collection of precepts and ideas that can be accepted or rejected. Religion becomes something external to the individual, something that can be won or lost. A person can be indoctrinated or converted or brainwashed. Since God is then defined as only “out there”, a person can become disconnected from their natural experience of Spirit. A person then can become disillusioned and bitter because what is now said to be about God does not match up with whatever spiritual experience continues.
And so we argue about religion.
Faith is sometimes used interchangeably with religion. But for me, faith is the inner expression of the personal experience of Spirit. If religion is how I relate publicly with others about Spirit, faith is how I relate to myself. Christian scriptures describe faith as “being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.” This does not mean wishful thinking. Being sure of what we hope for means acknowledging the need for relationship, hearing the call to connect to something greater. Being certain of what we do not see means trusting what we experience spiritually and not relying only on what we see, that is, our outward senses.
God is not just the great Whatever or That Which Is Greater. God is infinitely greater and therefore ultimately incomprehensible. But God is also infinitely intimate. Hindus say that God is closer to you than your own breath. Martin Buber said that God is closer to you than your own self. These religious words make sense to me and help me connect to and deepen my experience of God.
So I am connected to God each by religion and faith. Through religion, I am connected to the greater “outward”, if only through the company of a few other souls who speak a similar language. Through faith, I am connected to the great “inward”, if only through a still, small voice.
I don’t believe that either religion or faith connect us to God. It is our own brains that either do or do not connect us to God. (Free will?) Religion tries to show us how to connect with God, but nearly everything that religion teaches was developed before the age of science. Faith is forcing yourself to believe something that you know can’t possibly be true. I believe that God is, for lack of a better word, a spirit that lives outside of time. There is no way for our minds to conceive what God is or looks like. LIkely, in my opinion, God doesn’t look like anything.
String theory proposes that atomic particles consist of strings of energy vibrating in eleven dimensions. Try to visualize that. We can think of a rubber band vibrating in three dimensions, but what exactly is this “energy” stuff that is vibrating? I think this energy stuff may be a manifistation of God or possibly is God. Since we all are made of of atomic particles, then maybe we ourselves are part of God, just like Jesus. Nothing would exist without energy or mass, which as explained by Einstein are related by an equation.
I realize that my ideas probably sound wacky to those of you who have bothered to read my comments. But I give these ideas a lot of thought and have come to realize that I will never know what God is. Religion and Faith are of little, if any, help.
Thomas – please see my comments on May 6th, at 8:55pm. In many ways I am agreeing with you, sounds like we both feel that God/The Spirit/Whatever you want to call it, is out there, and around us and we cannot pin it down and paint a picture of it. However, I do disagree with you that religion and faith are of little help. If my parents hadn’t taken me to church, where I gained an understanding of the bible (a historical novel, if you will, don’t get me started), the creedos and mores of the religious community, I think I would have fallen prey to some of the more “charismatic” religions out there in my late teens/early 20’s. Church every Sunday for 18 years gave me some great friends, good times and a healthy respect for researching and truly understanding what I want to believe, not what a preacher tells me.
Religion provides a framework, a methodology in some cases, that aspires to connect an individual to God. The group to which I, very loosely, belong, Self Realization Fellowship, does this by practicing scientific meditation and yoga techniques that can be performed by anyone, regardless of their formal religious affiliation, or a lack of one altogether. Before the formal founding of SRF, the guru of my Guru’s guru, Lahiri Mahasaya, would give these techniques to anyone, Christian, Moslem or a practioner of Judaism. Since the passing of our Guru, Paramhansa Yogananda, initiation into the highest of these techniques, Kriya Yogi, contrary to his own words in the first few editions of his classic, Autobiography of a Yogi, can be given only by a SRF monastic. In those early editions, initiation into this highest of techniques could be given by anyone who themselves had been given Kriya.
Why am I going into such length about this particular technique, from this particular religion? I am doing so because learning techniques such as yoga and meditation cuts down on the need for faith, for belief based on faith alone. This is the great failure of religion by itself, and why so many people turn from it and either have lack belief in God altogether, or put their faith in such poor substitutes as politics, science, art, etc. Telling someone, “Have Faith”, is just another way for one human being to say to another, “Trust Me”, and all of us over the age of ten have followed that path into the pit of massive disappointment many, many times. If a religion provides a real, verifiable, replicable method of personally connecting to God, then it has use, and value, for whoever follows it. But if a religion lacks such a method, then it is no better than mere faith, which is basically of no value whatsoever. Faith is “hope light”, an intellectual version of hope without any emotional comfort or sustenance whatsoever.
Religion connects an individual to God as a means of creating a “denominational” or “political” fellowship with others who are like minded. Together, persons share a sytem of rules and beliefs about how they should worship, speak, dress, and conduct their entire lives. They set themselves apart from other “species” as it were and they aspire to being the “right” or “only” or “best” way to get to the hereafter. Organized religion is akin to an exclusive club where independence of thought isn’t necessarily encouraged, but the collective thought of the whole is encouraged and expected. There are those who must be involved in some type of religion or they don’t feel they have a pipeline to God. It is through this type of organization they feel connected and most close to their higher power. Without it, without the closely knit fellowship that organized religion provides,some feel their connection with their God has been interrupted and in danger of being lost.
Faith is a choice. Faith is an unwavering belief in a supreme spiritual being, much higher and larger than oneself is undoubtedly a connection to God. Without this faith there is no hope and eventually humans will find themselves in utter despair. If all we had to believe was nature, the big bang, Darwin’s theories, and molecules, protons, and atoms bumping into each other, why would anyone or anything have a reason to exist? What would be the purpose? Although I have never physically seen God, my faith tells me He exists. I choose to believe in God. And even if from a young age I had not been co-opted to buy into a belief that there even was a God, at some point in my life based on experiences I have had, I would have come to the conclusion that He is there and is working and wants to be included in my life. Do I need religion to sustain a faith and connection in God? At one time in my developmental years, yes, I did. Today, I don’t need religion and laws and guilt trips to tell me what I need to know about my God. He and I have our own relationship. My faith sustains me. Religion does not.
I wonder about the word “ineffable”. Certainly, God resists any direct all-encompassing description, but nevertheless aren’t there experiences of God, or at least in the direction of God? Those experiences are, perhaps with difficulty, capable of description even if that description requires languages other than discursive logic. And if an experience of God is possible, are there practices, approaches that facilitate opening to that kind of experience, or deepening it?
I believe there are.
But this is a very pragmatic approach to faith or religion, it varies with the individual and with their moment in time. It calls more for “working hypotheses” than for dogma and doctrine. It is centered on expanding experience rather than commitment to a belief for its own sake. I have found that revelation most often comes with the release from an old answer, more than the establishing of a new one.
I would be a blockhead if I ignored the advice of spiritual ancestors, or my friends and peers for that matter, but I don’t wish to worship their technique, their systems, their dogmas.
So good! Indeed, maybe God is only ineffable in the language of discursive logic. Maybe we do describe God accurately in some of our other languages.
“Working hypotheses” is a fantastic formulation in this context!
And I so much agree (though I hadn’t thought of it before) that revelation comes when we’ve let go. It seems that it it disappears once we’ve grasped back on to something.
For me, religion is the organized gatherings of people who practice by visible, tangible and audible means, their personal beliefs/faith, regadless of origin, which, due to multiple large or small distinctives, both unite them while separating them from others.
We have spend a ton of years following, believing in a framework purported to be God’s residence (as well as rules for navigating that framework) rather then an experiencing that which is within us. Good stuff!
Author of “Chapter 1, Verse 1″
Wow that is an very interesting article for me. I like your blog. Maybe you should write more articles of these type. By the way, sorry for my bad english
I am not religious.
I do not believe in GOD.
I do not believe in my Wife and Daughter.
I do not need ceremony or rules to be
connected to my Wife and Daughter.
Nor do I need those things to be connected
to GOD.
Religion does not connect any one to GOD.
Religion divides and separates one from GOD.
There is no religion in the relationship with
my Wife and Daughter.
I love them, They love me.
They know without thought that I love them, and
I know without thought that they love me.
We are Family.
That is Faith, That is our connection.
We experience GOD as we experience each other.
We are a part of GODs Family, GOD is a part of
our Family.
GOD, my Wife, and my Daughter are me and I am
them whether we are together or apart that does
not change.
That is the best I can explain connection to GOD.
I realy don’t think about it at all, I just live it as HE
inspired it in the Bible and other writings and
teachings.
The question seems to assume a connection is needed that does not already exist. But to answer the question, Religion and Faith do not connect anyone to God. Why?
Religion brings God down to man’s level (an anthropomorphic God) in an attempt to explain the unexplainable. The Gods of Religion have everything in common with man, yet almost knowing in common with the conscious fabric of the universe that is everything and everyone (and everything) is part of, and made from.
To use an old and well used analogy, God is the ocean and we are the drops. We see ourselves as separate, conscious entities desperately trying to find our Creator (usually with Faith-based religions), instead of understanding that we are all connected, and are ourselves the living potential of the very thing we seek. This is the meaning of Jesus’ statement, “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you.”
Jesus & Buddha both taught that finding God is an inward journey…but what exactly does that mean? It is so simple, yet so many misunderstand the teaching because it is right in front of their face, making them blind to seeing it…and the teaching is this: You can find God within because we all are part of God. Finding inner stillness can lead us to this awakening…an experience not easily explained to others or understood until experienced…hence the difficulty. The other path of Religion and Faith is easier to understand, but is a false path never leading to enlightenment. The inward path is difficult to understand and contrary to most religions, even though the Masters taught it that way. Religions tend to be about the Master, rather than the teachings and principles of the Master.
God has no religion, and requires no Faith. Does it require Faith for a parent to love a child, or vice-versa? God is, always was, and always will be. If we embrace our own Godliness, the ocean comes within sight.
I’ve read the New Testament many times, both in English translations and the original Greek, and I can assure you that Jesus never said anything remotely resembling what Jonathan is saying.
One of the first scriptural passages i learned as a child was Hebrews 11:1 which reads “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen”
In regards to Question #1 I look at God as being the wind, faith is the sail and religion is the boat. Can we experience the wind on our faces and through our hair without a method of harnessing it or a vehicle to propel it forward. Sure, I suppose we could simply enjoy the afternoon breeze on our own faces as we walk on the beach. However, look at the thousands of years of philosophical thought & writings & culture & civilizations that have been enhanced by people willing to put sail to boat & see what adventure the wind will take them on..
Hi There,
Well, to respond, I think that if the religion or faith has a focal point that includes something higher than self, and if the individual wants to rise higher to the Great It, then many sacred myths can act as a road to take us there. Particularly when certain universal things are present, such as appreciation for Our Maker, the pattern of life, death and rebirth, and a certain kind of beauty within the particular mythic story, which has a drawing or attracting power. Then we ride on the myth, upward, reaching, because we want to connect with something higher.
Love, Jen
Jennifer Reif
“The Holy Book of Mary Magdalene”
http://www.demeter.spiritualitea.net
Religion, for the most part, presents us with an intention to know and come closer to God, however misguided the teachings and practices may be. If there is a purity of heart and a total commitment behind the intention, then it matters not that the teachings and practices may be misguided.
Faith gives us the courage and hope needed to at least experiment with the power of the unseen that we might come to know first hand the source of real power.
I have to disagree with you. If one is convinced that some or all of the teachings and practices of a religion are misguided, then I think one only deceives oneself. All religions, or nearly all as far as I know, claim to be the one true faith. They all can’t be right, so I conclude that only one of them is right or all of them are wrong. I have faith that there is a God, otherwise nothing would exist. Try to conceive the concept of nothing: no space, no atoms, no energy, nothing. It is almost as hard to conceive of nothing as it is to conceive of infinity. However, where does God exist, if anywhere? In space or in nothing (hyperspace, whatever that is)?
Thought I would share a favorite poem by Author/s unknown.
The title is: D’ont Miss Out
The man whispered, “God speak to me”
And a meadow lark sang, but the man did not hear
So, the man yelled, “God speak to me”
And the thunder rolled across the sky, but the man did not listen
The man looked around and said, “God, let me see you”
And a star shone brightly, but the man did not notice
And the man shouted, “God show me a miracle”
And a life was born, but the man did not know
So, the man cried out in despair, “Touch me, God, and let me know that you are here”
Whereupon, God reached down and touched the man, but the man brushed the butterfly away and walked on
Don’t miss out on a blessing because it isn’t packaged the way you expect it.
I thought this poem reflects my thoughts about seeing God in everything.
cal
Reminds me of a quote by Paula D’Arcy: “God comes to us disguised as our life.”
This first question is a very packed question; because faith and religion have so many various meanings to the individual. Some would classify faith as a blind belief in whatever, despite evidence to the contrary. I would not define it as such. To me, faith is based on experience. I have faith this keyboard will type the next letter I press because it has done so in the past. Faith when coupled with religion (in my case) is the idea that the religion will continue to help me feel a connection to the divine (others may find that the coupling produces a way to know God’s will, or how to submit, ect), because it has done so in the past… but then again not all religions care, or even accept a divine. An an example would be certain forms of Buddhism that are atheistic in the divine realm, but are still considered a religion. So then how to define religion? One of the books I recently heard about (and so wanna buy once it comes out next month) is that religions do not all deal with the same issues, problems, or questions. A Question a Christian would ask is not at all related to a question a Hindu, or even a Muslim, would ask in concerns to the Divine and our relationship to it.
For me, and my spiritual path, the question has nothing to do with salvation or sin; what I am most concerned with is a truthful and personal experience with the divine (in whatever form that it takes). For me, religion is a tool to bring about that connection as well as a platform from which to process the experiences I have had. I have faith in the platform to help me come to terms and finding ways of expressing those experiences; but I also have faith in my inability to ever really convince anyone that what I have experienced is real (and truthfully, I think that is as it should be; for I believe we must all walk our own path and my trying to convince you of my experiences neither helps you on your way, or me on mine)… but again I would argue that my religion is one that puts value on those experiences in ways that would be completely meaningless in a Christian, Muslim, atheist (although atheism is not a religion, it is a world view and so fits the argument to a certain extent), or even other form of pagan context.
Can one have faith without religion? Sure, but I think that is extremely hard to do. I tend to think religion without faith is heckava lot easier; but this would not help me answer the questions that my path wishes to explore, or the questions it wants to answer. I will use this tool and hopefully will find those answers and by doing so, connect with the divine.
“faith is based on experience. I have faith this keyboard will type the next letter I press because it has done so in the past.”
I think this is right on the money. Actually, it jibes quite well with rabbinic thought on the bible’s Abraham. He didn’t have “faith” in that he believed God exists…he KNEW God (exists)…just like you know your keyboard (exists). Rather his faith was that he trusted God to “behave” as God said God would “behave.” Just imagine what life would be like if no one had an faith. We couldn’t do ANYTHING, always doubting whether our keyboards would actually type what we wan!
Other than that, Lynn, I appreciate that you’ve saved me the time of writing that for me religion is a tool that helps me connect to the divine reality. I totally agree. I hadn’t thought about it “as a platform from which to process the experiences I have had,” but I think that’s right on too.
I would add that it’s not just hard to have faith without religion, but that it might be impossible. It’s just that what the “religion” is is different. If we sense the divine, we seek to connect with it. That may be through historic, traditional religiosity or through our own private rituals, but it’s some form of religion all the same.
” If we sense the divine, we seek to connect with it.” This plays very into my response to the second question. My faith requires that I form a healthy relationship, to connect in a meaningful matter; other wise, why bother?
I was raised in the Methodist religion, but have morphed over time into believing in a higher power that doesn’t resemble any religion’s “god”. At times I find myself wishing that I had “a god” to pray to, or believe in, or cry out to….and eventually most times find that, well, I actually do have that. God is in us, around us and touches us in many ways every day. I feel that if we just choose to believe in (or have “faith” in) the support that “God” gives us, mentally and emotionally, then we do have “God” in our lives. This evolution of my thoughts and feelings about God are how I have chosen to connect myself to the being.
I do feel that going to church when I was young was a help, not a hindrance, in my eventual personal journey. That and very thoughtfully open-minded parents helped me to come to this point in thought.
First, definitions are important, and I have heard “faith” and “religion” used synonymously, such as when people ask “What faith are you?” For me, faith broadly speaking is much more difficult to define, than religion.
However, for this question, for me, strict definitions probably aren’t so important. What has pointed me toward a real engagement with the Mystery some call God, are practices or techniques that are found in all religions or faiths, including Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, and Christianity.
Those practices are the meditation techniques which all offer a doorway or path to the experience of that nameless Whatever, and so that is how they each connect an individual to God.
When reduced to the cultural and contextual constructs of religion, I think that all religions suffer through these challenges, and they (religions) can easily distract from faith and an understanding of God (Deity) that is the foundation of all religions. In other words, we get so caught up in justifying and defending our understanding of what faith means (i.e., religion) that we move further and further away *from* that faith. The important thing to realize though, at least as I’m trying to sort through these ideas, is that any faith that does not allow us to do away with external ideas (rooted in cultural and contextual constructs) is not a true manifestation of that faith. It seems to me that in an effort to provide responses that support the *certainty* of our faith, we lose the very essence of that faith, which is to believe despite the lack of certainty.
I’ve been trying to sort through these ideas for over four years now, but it’s still very much a work in progress.
I would encourage you to hold on to God and Christ, and let that be the starting point from which you examine Christianity. If you find things in the religion that do not support faith in God and Christ, then work on whether or not the religion is asserting its primacy rather than that of the Deity.
Does any of this make sense? I confess, it’s hard to know if my thinking is sound, as so few of those with whom I interact are willing to embrace negative capability (i.e., the capacity to hold two contradictory thoughts at the same time).
I think it is one of the characteristics of living faith to experience the struggle between conflicting thoughts. I think it is a consequence of the fact that our understanding is permanently growing as we work our way through the questions that we have.
The connection to God (if one feels one) is usually linked to the ideology of one’s adopted religion or philosophy. This connection is feeling and thought, and therein lies the problem. The feeling validates the belief system and vice versa. And now we have individuals separated by ideology and at odds with others who hold a different set of values or beliefs.
I have no personal involvement in religion but I know that the First Commandment gives the clue to this. One “idol” is the ideology or words that we hold along with the feeling of God. If God is One, then we don’t need any words to give it strength or substance. The feeling of God is ALL and words and beliefs only corrupt its pure essence.
So, religion really does not have much to do with all of this except to provide a social network for its members. Faith is a much more personal matter. Faith is the acceptance that God is All, and that faith can operate in the dark (without ideology or belief or knowledge). The darkness of faith will carry us to the light of God.
I realize this explanation is a little heavy on metaphor. I hope its meaning is clear.
I suppose in order for this discussion to be truly fruitful (and hopefully to multiply), we need to hear why those who profess a faith in God but subscribe to no religious beliefs or affiliations whatsoever do in fact have such a faith. I for one would like such answers to contain as much detail, as much specificity, as is possible, hopefully with anecdotes that indicate how such faith was born in the individual who now holds it dear. I have no problem understanding why someone would want no formal religious ties, because all such ties, such frameworks, come with limitations stemming from the very fact that they are attempting to define the indefinable. But someone who has faith but no religion must also have come up with their own definitions of God that are based on no structure at all, and I want to know how they arrived at these formulations.
I think you’re on to something here. You’re right that people who claim to have faith yet no religion must come up with their own “definitions” of God (though I would say “ways of relating” to God rather than “definitions”). I suspect the reality is that such a person relates to God in a variety of thought out, patterned ways…kind of like a religion. And so, I have doubts that people of faith have NO religion, though I’m sure that they may have a different – even their own – religion. If the person hasn’t developed ways of relating to God, then God has no direct relevance for the person, which would make the claim of faith a bit dubious. This brings me to the suspected conclusion that these people of faith but no religion are not actually rejecting religion per se, but rather a certain way of being religious.
I read once that religion is man’s attempt to reach God and Faith is God’s provision to reach man. I belong to a Monday night group of women who regularly discuss this and there are as many opinions as members of the group. It’s difficult to separae what we’ve learned from an organic experience but I believe that if you want to connect to God, ask how. The sincere question will lead to answers.
I belong to a small group of liberal women in an ultra-conservative retirement village. Our group saves our sanity as we study the latest writings’ exploring the interpretations of not only the Christian religion, but all others. One of our members is an avid fan of Jacoby, and she has brought your essay to us this week. I am very interested in being part of this on-line discussion group.
First of all, I note that your questions presuppose that there is a God. How do you determine that?
Religion connects some to a God, but it often becomes a fanatic connection in which other religions are wrong, and yours is right. Faith, on the other hand, can be experienced by aethiests as well. We all have faith in something, and that something varies widely. One great philosopher whose name escapes me said that if there were no God we´d have to invent one. Many of us feel that is just what we have done.
I am also interested in Physics but even that cannot take us back beyond the small particle that blew up ” The Big Bang ¨ So, that is where many of us posit something greater than ourselves as existing. How do you define ¨religion¨and ¨faith¨… Not easy words to corral.
Let the discussions begin!
Good point about the presupposition, Carol. I think the problem is addressed in a couple of ways, some of which you provide in your comment.
First, we would need to define “God” before saying with certainty that we have presupposed it. You say that “many of us post something greater than ourselves as existing.” That, I think, is the “God” that is presupposed here…not an unreasonable presupposition, in my opinion.
Second, and related, if atheists can experience faith and if we would have to invent a “God” (I have a feeling that was Einstein, but I’m not sure) in any case, then the presupposition seems to be of little concern.
Those two points (atheists of faith and invented “God”) seem to me to be key. Here’s what I take from them: Even if we’ve invented “God,” there definitely is a “God” insofar as we invest something with the sense of the ultimate. “God,” in this sense, is our ultimate concern. We must all have an ultimate concern (i.e. “God”), the question just becomes “what is it?” One would hope that this ultimate concern is indeed ultimate, though it need not be. I think the danger in investing ultimate status into something that is itself not truly ultimate can be rather dangerous (think the RCC placing the institutional church as its ultimate concern, or Enron execs placing $ as theirs, etc.) is quite clear.
I think your suspicion that we are “inventing” God is quite right. Every time we develop symbols (which includes all words…e.g. “God”) for God, we have in some sense invented God. The problem lies in forgetting that what we have come up with are not God, but rather symbols. In such a case we assign ultimate status to the symbols themselves. (In religious terms, this would be called idolatry.)
Sorry this is a bit jumbled.
In my view, Religion…all religions, are businesses, first and foremost, primarily for the economic benefit of the priests, elders, speakers, leaders, what have you! And faith is the glue and the club to keep the suckers(er, members) in line and contributing their time, money, and support. If you should have the temerity to question THE leader or the foundational “faith” of the religion, then you lack faith and need to be “fixed”!
Therefore, neither Faith or Religion, have any capability to connect an individual with a God! Now if there is some sort of Cosmic Consciousness, then I like the concepts of Kashmir Shaivism.. that is, there only exists this Cosmic Conciousness and everthing is a manifestation of that Supreme Consciousness and all of this is a Play of that Consciousness. My human existence is a part of that play and for that matter I am that Consciousness too! Namaste! I see myself, God, in you! Peekaboo!!
i haven’t thought it all through yet. but. it seems to me that religion conects people to itself first and then through growth to God. in order to do that, one has to give up something of them selves. so one must know something about the kind of person one is. Faith ultimately boils down to believing something that is unbelievable or un provable. my God for example is so powerful that He created this world we live in and he did it his way. now, if his way was to combine darwinian evolution in chimpanzees to the point where he breathed the breath of life into them, (the ability to reason) and then called them man, i don’t care. exactly how God accomplished this is not relevant to my life. that he did is.
so my growth has been about leaving behind all the trappings of religion and focusing on one question: if all this God stuff is real, what is the relevant truth. at this point i believe my God is so loving and encompassing he will reconcile his creation, muslim, shihite, hindu, methodist, catholic, gay and lesbian, muslim, athiest, and even lutherans to himself by what ever means is necessary. and, he has that power.
it is important to remember that at the “last supper”, there were no lutherans, methodists, presbyterians, catholics, muslims, shihites, hindu or baptists at the table. there were only jews and serving the table was a woman from herod’s court. on the cross, Jesus said to the robber TODAY! you will be with me in paradise. he didn’t say if you belong to the lutheran church and repent i’ll see you in paradise.
but without a teacher, i believe it is difficult to make the trip. so i believe religion can be a good teacher and put us on the “right” path? but at every fork in the path we must choose which road to follow. all of the bible teaches us to shed anything which does not support the two greatest commandments: love God and love your neighbor.
so i think the message is clear. if religion keeps one shackled to what one can see, touch feel, smell or taste, i believe it’s time to shed the religion for faith.
boxes… and kites.
I love the box analogy. And I’ve enjoyed reading the ideas posted here. A rabbi I knew who passed away last year once said “I believe in radical interfaith. Not the kind where we holds hands and secretly say ‘We’ll see who’s right in the end’– but where we share what are our experiences with God, what motivates us, inspires us to believe as we do, what are our struggles and successes of faith.” I love that.
In that spirit, II want to share a kite analogy I’ve heard with a different application that this dialogue brings to mind.
If you’ve ever flown a kite, or flown one with a child, think about how you get that kite off the ground and help it fly. Maybe you or the child thought, “The string is holding the kite back. Let’s cut it so it can fly high forever!” If you ever have cut it, or even let the string go, what happens to the kite? Watching the kite fall/float to the ground goes against what you thought/reasoned/felt. “Religion holds man/woman/humans down in dogma, fear, and trepidation.” This may sometimes be the case. Many religious groups and leaders have utilized their teachings to control or manipulate even destroy others with the efficiency someone flying the kite. I notice many comments from folks here are sharing the conclusion or assumption that religion is man-made, mostly likely countering that many believe/assume religion is divinely instituted/inspired (or that one’s own religion is “right” and the others “wrong”). Back to the kite–It requires an energy source (kite flyer and the wind) and a means of connection (string) to fly and be guided. The Bible says “Straight is the gate and narrow the way that leads to eternal life and few there be that enter therein.” Lao Tsu says “Great straightness seems twisted.” That kite string looks confining, narrow, limiting, even ridiculous to outside observers. Many rituals and religious teachings appear the same. Yet as I’ve visited temples, chapels, mosques, meditation halls, synagogues, mountains, rivers, etc. I’ve gained a deeper appreciation and understanding of God through another set of glasses. The actions themselves of singing, chanting, sitting, reading, moving, standing, listening, sharing put my body and spirit in a different frame of thinking and being and new energy and ideas seem to flow each time. I wonder sometimes, besides traditional interpretations, if the straight gate Jesus spoke of or the “great straightness” of the Tao is an open awareness of past/present/future. If we truly seek and connect with an awareness of what lies before and after us, as well as within/among us, I believe we would find God, faith, and even religion and rituals. Of course our finite minds cannot truly comprehend the past/present/future on our own, so the more profoundly/regularly we seek connection with God, the more opportunity we have for Him to show us the visions of all things we need to know. Many thinkers/theologians/prophets have set to describe God and the Great Whatever. I believe each of us has every right and opportunity to question their words, and also to accept them. I believe each of us has a connection with the infinite, the divine, God like that kite string. We ourselves are the ones who severe it by closing our minds and hearts to truth, faith, other people, and sometimes, yes, religion. If God, the supposedly unknowable and mysterious, wants to make himself known to us by allowing us to see Him and see the string that connects us to him, who are we to say he cannot give us the tools to share that experience with others? Yet there is the danger that the tools given, even “mandated” by God for us may supplant another person’s personal/individual connection with Him– hence the box analogy.
To me, the greatest challenge and greatest opportunity in these times is to be still in our minds and hearts while also engaged in what we are called to do by He and She who know our paths. This is a work and life of discipline and love.
This kite analogy is great!
Religion is the framework by which individuals workout and explore their relationship with God. It is a starting point – a system of rituals and teachings designed to help an individual focus his thinking about God. Faith is an individual’s unique and personal experience with God. It is Gods revelation of himself to the individual. People have both material and spiritual dimensions. Religion facilitates our connection to God with respect to our material dimension and faith connects our spiritual dimension to God. I think we need both.
Two simple points about two major flaws in your argument.
1) Saying that you know God exists (which you say you do) makes a claim to knowing something about God. If you know he exists why can you not know anything else about him?
2) Suggesting that God is unknowable beyond his existence is an even bolder, and incredibly arrogant position. First, you ARE claiming to know something about God when you we cannot know anything about him. Knowing is “unknowableness” is knowing something about Him. Second, you greatly limit God in such a statement – who are you to claim He cannot reveal anything about Himself to us? Is He, who is capable of anything, not actually capable of revelation?
Saying God is unknowable is not a claim to know anything about God. Quite the opposite, it is a claim to know nothing about God.
The problem here is our need to rely on creation to describe the uncreated. One can’t even properly say that God exists because existence is itself created. If God exists, then existence must be present outside of creation. Most monotheists contend that the only thing that is present outside creation is God, so unless existence is God, then existence can’t be present outside of creation for a monotheist, thus God can’t have existence (i.e. can’t exist).
This problem is also there with the word “present” as I’ve used it above. The issue is that every word, thought, dream, etc. we have is a part of creation. Thus we have no way to describe or discuss anything that is not a part of creation. IT’s a bit like the “visualizers” on iTunes and Windows Media Player that “depict” the sounds visually. The depictions are not the sounds and really don’t tell us anything about the sounds, they are – at best – visual metaphors for something that is wholly other from themselves.
Even the notion of “limiting” God forces God into our framework of creation. Your question about God’s capabilities in this regard is the same as the question about God creating a rock so heavy that God can’t lift it. This is only a paradox when we are thinking in the sense of creation. But God transcends creation. In God this apparent paradox is not present. God is not capable of anything because God does not have capabilities. God transcends capabilities.
This is why Godtalk usually makes no sense and seems incoherent. God is not rational.
For me, religion is an outward or public expression of an inward or personal experience of Spirit. Martha Woodroof calls God “the great Whatever”. I like that. I sometimes call God That Which Is Greater. Greater than what? Whataya got? Whatever word(s) or thought or theology or system or belief or experience you may have, God is greater than that. That’s fine, but how does little me connect to Greater That?
There’s lots to say about the need – and the awareness of the need – to connect what we perceive to be our solitary selves with the greater world around us. Suffice it to say that we need and seek relationships. And we need and seek relationships, apparently, beyond the satisfaction of materialistic requirements. Whitehead said that we not only seek to live, we seek to live well and then seek to live better yet. We are constantly looking for something greater.
Religion is a human invention, like language, that helps us form relationships; helps us connect with the greater community. Language helps us express our thoughts. Religion helps us express our spirit. Like languages, religions have their own traditions and histories of development, their own grammar and syntax. At their best, religion helps connect us with the spiritual experiences of others. This enhances our own experience and connection with God.
Problems develop when, as C. S. Lewis indicated, we mistake the map for the territory. When we take our religion to be not just an expression of Spirit, but the truth of spirit itself. We then become disconnected from others and God. Religion then can become hollow, a collection of precepts and ideas that can be accepted or rejected. Religion becomes something external to the individual, something that can be won or lost. A person can be indoctrinated or converted or brainwashed. Since God is then defined as only “out there”, a person can become disconnected from their natural experience of Spirit. A person then can become disillusioned and bitter because what is now said to be about God does not match up with whatever spiritual experience continues.
And so we argue about religion.
Faith is sometimes used interchangeably with religion. But for me, faith is the inner expression of the personal experience of Spirit. If religion is how I relate publicly with others about Spirit, faith is how I relate to myself. Christian scriptures describe faith as “being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.” This does not mean wishful thinking. Being sure of what we hope for means acknowledging the need for relationship, hearing the call to connect to something greater. Being certain of what we do not see means trusting what we experience spiritually and not relying only on what we see, that is, our outward senses.
God is not just the great Whatever or That Which Is Greater. God is infinitely greater and therefore ultimately incomprehensible. But God is also infinitely intimate. Hindus say that God is closer to you than your own breath. Martin Buber said that God is closer to you than your own self. These religious words make sense to me and help me connect to and deepen my experience of God.
So I am connected to God each by religion and faith. Through religion, I am connected to the greater “outward”, if only through the company of a few other souls who speak a similar language. Through faith, I am connected to the great “inward”, if only through a still, small voice.
This was beautiful and well said. Thanks
I don’t believe that either religion or faith connect us to God. It is our own brains that either do or do not connect us to God. (Free will?) Religion tries to show us how to connect with God, but nearly everything that religion teaches was developed before the age of science. Faith is forcing yourself to believe something that you know can’t possibly be true. I believe that God is, for lack of a better word, a spirit that lives outside of time. There is no way for our minds to conceive what God is or looks like. LIkely, in my opinion, God doesn’t look like anything.
String theory proposes that atomic particles consist of strings of energy vibrating in eleven dimensions. Try to visualize that. We can think of a rubber band vibrating in three dimensions, but what exactly is this “energy” stuff that is vibrating? I think this energy stuff may be a manifistation of God or possibly is God. Since we all are made of of atomic particles, then maybe we ourselves are part of God, just like Jesus. Nothing would exist without energy or mass, which as explained by Einstein are related by an equation.
I realize that my ideas probably sound wacky to those of you who have bothered to read my comments. But I give these ideas a lot of thought and have come to realize that I will never know what God is. Religion and Faith are of little, if any, help.
Thomas – please see my comments on May 6th, at 8:55pm. In many ways I am agreeing with you, sounds like we both feel that God/The Spirit/Whatever you want to call it, is out there, and around us and we cannot pin it down and paint a picture of it. However, I do disagree with you that religion and faith are of little help. If my parents hadn’t taken me to church, where I gained an understanding of the bible (a historical novel, if you will, don’t get me started), the creedos and mores of the religious community, I think I would have fallen prey to some of the more “charismatic” religions out there in my late teens/early 20’s. Church every Sunday for 18 years gave me some great friends, good times and a healthy respect for researching and truly understanding what I want to believe, not what a preacher tells me.
Religion provides a framework, a methodology in some cases, that aspires to connect an individual to God. The group to which I, very loosely, belong, Self Realization Fellowship, does this by practicing scientific meditation and yoga techniques that can be performed by anyone, regardless of their formal religious affiliation, or a lack of one altogether. Before the formal founding of SRF, the guru of my Guru’s guru, Lahiri Mahasaya, would give these techniques to anyone, Christian, Moslem or a practioner of Judaism. Since the passing of our Guru, Paramhansa Yogananda, initiation into the highest of these techniques, Kriya Yogi, contrary to his own words in the first few editions of his classic, Autobiography of a Yogi, can be given only by a SRF monastic. In those early editions, initiation into this highest of techniques could be given by anyone who themselves had been given Kriya.
Why am I going into such length about this particular technique, from this particular religion? I am doing so because learning techniques such as yoga and meditation cuts down on the need for faith, for belief based on faith alone. This is the great failure of religion by itself, and why so many people turn from it and either have lack belief in God altogether, or put their faith in such poor substitutes as politics, science, art, etc. Telling someone, “Have Faith”, is just another way for one human being to say to another, “Trust Me”, and all of us over the age of ten have followed that path into the pit of massive disappointment many, many times. If a religion provides a real, verifiable, replicable method of personally connecting to God, then it has use, and value, for whoever follows it. But if a religion lacks such a method, then it is no better than mere faith, which is basically of no value whatsoever. Faith is “hope light”, an intellectual version of hope without any emotional comfort or sustenance whatsoever.
Religion connects an individual to God as a means of creating a “denominational” or “political” fellowship with others who are like minded. Together, persons share a sytem of rules and beliefs about how they should worship, speak, dress, and conduct their entire lives. They set themselves apart from other “species” as it were and they aspire to being the “right” or “only” or “best” way to get to the hereafter. Organized religion is akin to an exclusive club where independence of thought isn’t necessarily encouraged, but the collective thought of the whole is encouraged and expected. There are those who must be involved in some type of religion or they don’t feel they have a pipeline to God. It is through this type of organization they feel connected and most close to their higher power. Without it, without the closely knit fellowship that organized religion provides,some feel their connection with their God has been interrupted and in danger of being lost.
Faith is a choice. Faith is an unwavering belief in a supreme spiritual being, much higher and larger than oneself is undoubtedly a connection to God. Without this faith there is no hope and eventually humans will find themselves in utter despair. If all we had to believe was nature, the big bang, Darwin’s theories, and molecules, protons, and atoms bumping into each other, why would anyone or anything have a reason to exist? What would be the purpose? Although I have never physically seen God, my faith tells me He exists. I choose to believe in God. And even if from a young age I had not been co-opted to buy into a belief that there even was a God, at some point in my life based on experiences I have had, I would have come to the conclusion that He is there and is working and wants to be included in my life. Do I need religion to sustain a faith and connection in God? At one time in my developmental years, yes, I did. Today, I don’t need religion and laws and guilt trips to tell me what I need to know about my God. He and I have our own relationship. My faith sustains me. Religion does not.
I wonder about the word “ineffable”. Certainly, God resists any direct all-encompassing description, but nevertheless aren’t there experiences of God, or at least in the direction of God? Those experiences are, perhaps with difficulty, capable of description even if that description requires languages other than discursive logic. And if an experience of God is possible, are there practices, approaches that facilitate opening to that kind of experience, or deepening it?
I believe there are.
But this is a very pragmatic approach to faith or religion, it varies with the individual and with their moment in time. It calls more for “working hypotheses” than for dogma and doctrine. It is centered on expanding experience rather than commitment to a belief for its own sake. I have found that revelation most often comes with the release from an old answer, more than the establishing of a new one.
I would be a blockhead if I ignored the advice of spiritual ancestors, or my friends and peers for that matter, but I don’t wish to worship their technique, their systems, their dogmas.
So good! Indeed, maybe God is only ineffable in the language of discursive logic. Maybe we do describe God accurately in some of our other languages.
“Working hypotheses” is a fantastic formulation in this context!
And I so much agree (though I hadn’t thought of it before) that revelation comes when we’ve let go. It seems that it it disappears once we’ve grasped back on to something.
This is great, JPG…thanks!